Down Mexico Way
05.01.06I wrote this over a year ago and it received modest distribution. It also earned me threats over a period of several weeks from a deranged lib who didn’t like my reasoning. I thought perhaps today would be a good day to send it out again. -Russ
Try crossing our southern border; try going the other way,
To enter Mexico illegally for an extended, unlawful stay.
Ignore immigration quotas, all their visas and their fees,
And quietly slip their border, anytime you damn well please.
Just sneak in past the policía, ignoring Mexican laws;
You’ve a desperate need to improve your lot; you have a righteous cause.
With Evil Bush in power now, destroying your liberal order,
You’ve a right to seek asylum, to trespass their northern border.
Once there, speak English only and demand it in their schools;
Forget assimilation; make Mexicanos change their rules.
What right do these Latinos have to make you learn their lingo?
Tell those churlish campesinos¹ you’ve the right to remain a gringo.
Move right on in, live your own way, ignore their cultural norms,
And demand the use of English on all their official forms.
Free healthcare is, of course, your right; let poor peones² pay,
For bilingual health providers throughout your border-bending stay.
Be sure to have a baby just as quickly as you can;
A citizen in the family helps legitimize your clan.
Then have another three or four, or maybe six or eight;
Don’t worry how you’ll feed them, just demand help from the state.
Paisanos³ paying taxes may resent your reckless breeding,
And protest loudly to their states about your gringo kids they’re feeding;
“But it’s just our way,” is your excuse, “Brought from our Yanquí land.”
How dare they question gringo ways they’ll never understand?
So defend your Anglo ethos; yield not your Yanquí essence;
And demand a driver’s license to legitimize your presence.
Just so you know what you’ve done wrong in case of policía stops,
Insist the Federales must teach English to all cops.
Make Mexicans accept your ways, make them your pliant fools;
Demand a Yanquí culture course be taught in all their schools.
So what you paid no taxes; when you’re an old gringo who will care?
File for your Seguridad Social, after all, you’re due your share.
If all this sounds preposterous, an irrational expectation,
Dems are demanding it for Illegals now in our multicultural nation.
Russ Vaughn
¹Rube, hick, unsophisticated person
²Laborer, worker
³Citizen
*******
And I have to throw this one in because it’s such a classic. -Chad
That’s a really good poem!
And a really scary picture! Almost as scary as the one you just had to link for Kerry’s daughter that makes me want to vomit
# May 2nd, 2006 at 10:13 amYou got it correct and the libs won’t like it. The driver’s license is great for california. What a state. FFFrisco is so ate up. That city will not let the U.S. Navy dock the U.S.S. Missouri there,Some dumb ass nazi college students there denied military recruters freedom of speech to tell young American’s about the military. If the big earthquake hits there, I will NOT donate to the relief effort and I hope we can just sell the whole damn state/mess back to Mexico.Kiss my Ass Kalifornia!
# May 2nd, 2006 at 9:38 pmCould anyone find out about this Rev.Phelphs? Kansas I think? Chad this guys followers are protesting at the funerals of Our dead soldiers, holding disrespecfull anti-U.S. signs? If this is true, Could you post some information on this site about these creeps. I know that you have better p.c. and Religous Knowledge than I do. They went way over the line.
# May 2nd, 2006 at 9:58 pmyea, they’re from the westboro baptist church. just google that and you’ll see all the insane crap they pull. those guys are going to hell twice.
# May 2nd, 2006 at 10:05 pmThanks Chad, I looked at the site. they are scum.Westboro Baptist Church (WBC) of Topeka, Kansas. That city has a “report potholes” on the city site, so I reported this pothole to them and plan to make it my hobbie. they pissed meof.
# May 2nd, 2006 at 10:33 pm:sad:Wow, you really are a racist. Congrats.
# May 6th, 2006 at 2:25 amNo, he’s an American who doesnt want to see people in his country that shouldnt be there. He has no problem with people who immigrate legally.
I heard about that church thing too, theyre kinda crazy. They were holding signs that said stuff like “God hates the troops,” too bad God hates nobody. Operation Rolling Thunder, an all nam vet biker club, showed up at a couple funerals of troops that those crazy people were going to be at and didnt let them get too close
# May 6th, 2006 at 5:35 amSmith - There’s nothing rascist about any of this. So grow up, and stop playing the race card, period.
Me - The westboro guys are way out of line, and I really doubt their allegience to God. On a side note, as a matter of fact, God can and does hate. Read the first chapter in the book of Malachi.
I know how alot of churchs today, only talk about how God is so lovey dovey, and loves everybody. But the Old Testament says otherwise.
# May 6th, 2006 at 7:12 amI was at WBC’s website (godhatesfags.com) and saw this:
GodHatesFags.com en español!
http://www.godhatesfags.com/espanol/
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
# May 6th, 2006 at 9:09 amGod gets angry, I hate the “lovey dovey” interpretation of God, but I dont know that he truly hates people. I dont know if that verse is worded differently in other versions, Ill have to check mine.
# May 6th, 2006 at 4:53 pmGod doesn’t hate people, he hates evil. The act of evil for instance is a action or a state of mind, not the person. One day God will destroy those who choose evil over Him. But until that day he wants nothing more than to have every man, woman, and child embrace the Truth and turn from their wicked ways.
# May 6th, 2006 at 6:27 pmRemember, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son…” The “world” means every human that lives on it. Not just one or two.
But don’t be mistaken, there are enemies of God. Paul (or Saul at the time) was an enemy of God before God (Christ) revealed Himself to Saul. Anyone who chooses evil, which is defined as “without God,” over The Lord is on a one way road to an eternity of hot fire. God loves us so much that He gave us “freewill” in order for us to choose good over evil and Heaven over Hell.
In fact, any of the militant islamic terrorists (who I and most of America would like to see dead) could indeed receive Christ and be granted forgiveness of their sin if they so chose. There is no sin too great as long as you have “REAL” repentance and you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior. That doesn’t mean you receive amnesty here on Earth, because justice must be had. If you commit a crime and was sentenced to death, you must accept your punishment and deal with God when you meet Him.
# May 6th, 2006 at 6:45 pmAll I know is that the Bible says that God hated Esau. God does “love” everybody, but He does have the capacity to hate evil and evil doers alike.
King James Version:
# May 6th, 2006 at 7:05 pmWell some might say that Gods love for Man changed after the birth and death of His Son Jesus. I am not sure that His love changed or His tact in dealing with us. I am not really a Bible scholar.
I have read where some people suggest that since God is omnipotent that He know who commits the unforgivable sin and knows who will in fact change their hearts. I don’t quite know what I think about this theory. Im not sure that God would deal with us according to things we have yet to do… but I suppose it’s feasible.
# May 7th, 2006 at 7:30 amI know basically nothing about Chrisitianity, but doesn’t hating seem like a very human thing for God to be doing?
“God doesn’t hate people, he hates evil. The act of evil for instance is a action or a state of mind, not the person.”
^That seems closer to the idea. For God to be like “I hate Jeremy Watkins, age 35, of 1456 Cherry Hill Rd.” etc. seems sort of dumb.
# May 7th, 2006 at 11:41 amWhatever, like I said, I am no Bible scholar. I am just a lay Christian still looking for all the answers. But most Christians would agree that God’s special love for man is part of the foundation of Christianity.
Even though He is omnipotent and knows the past, present, and future, He still hopes that each of us will comes to Him and embrace Him as He has embraced us. The truth is that He is a compassionate and forgiving God that wants nothing but the best for each and everyone of us. Even you… haha.
# May 7th, 2006 at 2:54 pm
I see… 
# May 7th, 2006 at 4:14 pmHi Chad! The New Testament expounds on that verse from Malachi, in Romans. (Scripture interprets scripture).
Romans 9: 10-24
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”[b]
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[c] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[d] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 11: 33-36 “Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgements, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor? Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him? For from him and through him and to him are all things . To him be the glory forever!
Praise God for the Gospel of Jesus Christ!
# May 7th, 2006 at 9:37 pmThanks, AW. I was actually lookin for that verse, but I just coulden’t remember which book it was in.
# May 7th, 2006 at 11:28 pmWhatever said:
A human thing? I don’t know about that. What I do know is that we were created in HIS image. God can suffer the same feelings we can. Love, Wrath, Jealousy, Hatred. Although God IS a God of love, read Revelation as He unleashes hell upon earth. He is kind, but He is not soft. And those who hate him will suffer His wrath.
About God not “hating”. How can you argue scripture? He says He hated Esau. I understand that most churchs don’t like to give Bible studies on the fact, because they like to preach up how lovey dovey God is, and everything that HE can do for YOU.
But a true seeker of Christ will be seeking all that he can do for GOD (the ministry, etc).
# May 8th, 2006 at 9:18 pmI think many churches focus primarily on the love of God according to Holy Scripture. 99.99999% of the Gospel of Jesus Christ speaks of love not hate. Should we concentrate our efforts on the .000001% and forget about the rest? Surly not. Do some churches forget about scripture… I am not so sure that they do. I believe that many churches purposefully keep certain scripture “untaught” for specific purposes. Whether it be a church that is “seeker oriented” or a church with an political agenda (United Methodist and Episcipalian for example).
Whatever the reason, I think we should not fixate ourselves on who, how, or why God would hate anybody. I think it would be a waste of time. How many of us, who could get caught up in this debate, really knows Scripture like the back of our hand? How many of us could lose focus on the main concepts of the Bible in order to debate someone regarding obscure references? How many of us study our Bibles everyday and put It’s principles into our daily lives. I know I lack in every sense. I am guilty as charged.
So I would emplore everyone, especially those new to Christianity, to learn the basic concepts of God’s love before worrying about who God may or may not hate.
# May 8th, 2006 at 10:11 pmAlso, Chad reference to “what we can do for God” is right on. It’s similar to Kennedy’s “Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country,” just insert “God” where “your Country” is. That is what real Christianity is about: service to God.
# May 8th, 2006 at 10:16 pmPreach the whole word of God
2 Timothy 3:l6 All Scriputre is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
# May 9th, 2006 at 9:34 amGloria,
I am not saying “don’t preach the whole word of God.” If you would have read my entire comment instead of skimming over it and looking for a scriptural retort, you might have realized that. I said that it is not to our benefit to spend large amounts of time quibbling over small, vague parts of the Bible when we fail to fully study the main themes of Scripture. Thanks anyways.
# May 9th, 2006 at 10:29 amGloria is fine. And her response isn’t one from “skimming”.
The fact that you don’t believe God has the capacity to “hate”, when in scripture it very clearly says He does, is what I believe inspired her response.
All scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction, means that even the verse about God hating Esau is one that we can grow in Christian maturity, and gain a better understanding of the God we worship.
And when you say:
You may think that, as do most mainstream churches, but that doesn’t make it right. I do understand that the idea of God “hating” can be daunting. But it shoulden’t be to those who are called by Him. And it is just as important to preach about the small “hush hush” verses, as it is the “good-news, God-can-make-your-life-fabulous” sermons.
# May 9th, 2006 at 11:59 amThis is the only blog that can veer so far off the orinal post… I love it.
God hates sin. Look at Calvary. The wrath of God was poured out on Christ. He took the punishment for our actions. The one who knew no wrong, sin, became sin so that we could live. The Law demanded justice. He submitted himself to death. The picture of Calvary and a man beat beyond recognition, forsaken, and alone; God was showing His hatred for sin. Workers of sin become the object of God’s hatred when they forsake repentence and spit in the face of God, although, His mercy is longsuffering. No one is perfect or without sin, except Jesus Christ, but when we are faced with what Christ did for us and still not repent, you hate God. God loves His creation but much of His creation hates Him. Yes, even many Christians frown at the fact that they must repent and live a repentant life - they hate Him. They continue walking in their ungodliness without hesitaion. They are carnal and their contempt of the holy bleeds out of their spirit like a gutted deer.
Do we hate Him is the real question? God has the ability to hate what does not please Him. Who are we to bring Him down to human logic and understanding. Yes God so loved the world… He sent his sinless son so He could die in our place. Amazing, insane, illogical, irrational love. While we were yet sinners Christ died. I, for one, am ecstatic about the fact I have an opportunity to live for Him and not be His enemy any longer. Do I fail, yes, but His sacrifice has given me a doorway back into forgiveness.
You can nuke this if you want Chad, a little too preachy?
# May 9th, 2006 at 1:09 pmNot at all Chad. A very excellent contribution.
Aaaaand. You are absolutely right about how far this site can veer off the original post.
I shoulda just made a new post that continued are new topic.
# May 9th, 2006 at 1:22 pmSo Chad, you are saying it IS indeed good to fixate ourselves on who God hates? Looks like you are skimming over my points as well.
# May 9th, 2006 at 6:22 pmMy point was not that I disagree that God may or may not hate, but many professed Christians spend too much time debating fague theology when they know jack about basic scripture. I am probably one of these.
Also, think twice before you lump me into your “the mainstream church” which is sooo wrong and you are sooo right. I don’t take too kindly to unsubstantiated insinuations of my beliefs. You can do that to all these liberal troll idiots, but not to me.
# May 9th, 2006 at 6:31 pmWell, since my last query sparked such a debate: What does Christianity/the Bible, etc. dictate about the study of other religions? Does it condemn them?
# May 9th, 2006 at 7:05 pmIt depends on what your definaition of condemn means. It seems these days to condemn mean darn near anything that might offend.
It does say in Scripture that the only way to the Father is through the Son. That scripture is a sore spot to many folks. Christianity is clear that to get to Heaven one must accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah and Son of God. Unfortunately that means those who practice other religions burn with the Devil. Sucky, but its the Word of God. That doesn’t mean you can’t inquire about what other religions practice. It’s good to know about others in order to refute them when they try to debate. I have read up on LDS and Mormonism just so I can be prepared to speak the truth when one comes knocking on my door.
# May 9th, 2006 at 7:15 pmCS,
great points. It amazes me too that God even puts up with my crap. I sit on here talking about things that I barely understand, about a God that is beyond my scope of understanding, getting annoyed at Chad for not understanding me… man I am a dope. I am just glad God hasn’t sent a lightning bolt down to fry me yet.
# May 9th, 2006 at 7:24 pmdude. don’t get yer panties in a bind. I’m just discussing theology with you.
lets disect your last comment directed at me/us.
Nobody said anything about “fixating”. What I did say… is to not ignore it. Which MSC (mainstream churches) do.
That is something that you DID say, and I came back with scripture. later on…
If anything, Christians rarely ever even mention that God can and does “hate”. So I would disagree and say that many professed Christians spend no time at all debating this “theory”.
And for the final sassy blow:
You sensative little devil. Allow me to voice this entire comment in a monotone manner.
This is a debate. You say one thing, and I argue back. There is an entire lack of lumpage going on here. Don’t forget that we are still friends. I never once lumped you in with MSC. I only said that alot of the MSC only like to teach the lovey dovey stuff, so alot of newer Christians still don’t hold the belief or understanding that God can and does “hate” evil. people can be evil. Therefore God can hate people.
And I have never made “insinuations” of your belief. I’ve only argued against that which you typed out here. So I don’t need to insinuate something that you said.
# May 9th, 2006 at 9:08 pmnot sure why i feel the need to butt my nose in this thread since i think me, chad and SF covered it about a year ago on SF’s site BUT just for grins and giggles:
huh…so what about those of us who dont practice any religion?
or worse!…those of us who dont even believe there is a god:shock:
*puts on flame retardant suit and braces for incoming fire*
# May 10th, 2006 at 12:33 amRomans l:l8 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
l:l9 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them,
l:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
l:2l because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
l:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools
Psalm l9:l The heavens declare the glory of God: And the firmament shows His handiwork.
l9:2 Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge.
l9:3 There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard
# May 10th, 2006 at 6:21 amProverbs 1:22
22 “How long will you simple ones love your simple ways?
# May 10th, 2006 at 6:32 amHow long will mockers delight in mockery
and fools hate knowledge?
I just thought I would throw out some random scripture because that seems to be the cool thing to do.
# May 10th, 2006 at 7:15 amActually…. there’s nothing random about Glorias scripture, dude. It was a response to Liz’s question.
JJ…. you surprise me.
# May 10th, 2006 at 8:00 amI was making light of the fact there are those who just drop scripture without any further explination. When people get on here how do they know what we mean when we quote he Word of God.
I am actually still waiting for her to reply to my comment about me never stating that I don’t want certain parts of the Bible studied. I never said that and just wanted further explination on why she quoted that scripture.
But if you don’t want me to challenge anyone on here who is conservative I won’t. All I was looking for was a follow up… thats all. No need to get “your” undies in a bunch…as you so eliquently stated.
# May 10th, 2006 at 8:23 amOff the subject… all my websites are down. Have your EHostPro.com sites gone offline?
# May 10th, 2006 at 8:25 amI went to 3G and was horrified to find it was down.
# May 10th, 2006 at 9:53 amIt’s still outta commision. I guess Ehostpros.com (my server) is having issues. Im a sad puppy, too.
Also, I didn’t mean to sound mean or to write zingers to anybody. I blame it on my pregnant wife’s hormones… which is making her obnoxious at times, which is making me obnixious…. anything I said this last week take it with a grain of salt.
# May 10th, 2006 at 11:43 amOh yea… as soon 3G gets back up you all should read my last post on the first three letters of The Screwtape Letters. Good stuff.
# May 10th, 2006 at 11:51 am*pulls off flame retardent suit helmet and blurts:*
so gloria, is there anything in that scripture of yours that explains why your god would give man free will for the sole purpose of punishing him when he decides to use it?
kinda like if i gave you a brandy new lawn mower and then tossed you in jail when i saw you cutting your grass with it.
sounds a tad nuts to me.
or maybe there’s something in there that explains just why we just happen to live on the only planet (out of 9!) that is capable of sustaining life? Surely a god so awesome could have figured out a way of making life without making it carbon based? and why just this planet? theres 8 others going to waste! and what about those dinosaurs anyway? what were those like test subjects? and what the heck did they do that was SO bad he had to wipe ‘em out? oh well, it was probably that they couldnt read those 10 commandments and kept killing and eating each other. not sure but i think eating your neighbor is a no no.
i’m not trying to be (overly) sarcastic but surely a mouthpeice of god that touts scripture so easily can answer these simple questions with something a little more in depth than ‘it is gods will’
chad if i get to be too much just lemme know and i’ll drop it but i’d love to hear what she has to say.
*tosses helmet back on and braces once again*
# May 10th, 2006 at 11:57 amHi Liz,
First God gave you a free will to decide your fate. The better question for you would be to ask how am I even here. Sure toss in evolution but remember, it takes more faith for evolution than to believe that a loving God cares and created everything. The facts and statistics alone prove that it couldn’t have been by accident. If there is a design then there is a designer. The lawn argument is lame for one reason. What if you used that lawn mower to cut down a few kids? Or chase puppies? It is in its use. Free will if used according to faith brings about the proper results. God is not a dictator He allows you to decide you fate.
The free will maker has set laws in place. If we have the will to fly we can’t just jump off a cliff and fly. The law of gravity will prove our will to be wrong. We have to reach for a high law. Arrow dynamics. The wages of sin is death. The moral law can be broken and just like gravity it will be a disaster. So what is our higher law? Grace. Jesus Christ came and paid the price. So don’t believe in Jesus? Think he is a made up mad man from some writers imagination? That is a matter of faith. The statistical possibilites of Jesus being here is astronomical.
# May 10th, 2006 at 1:29 pmWell Liz… I’ll just go ahead and warn Gloria, that there is no sensible debate with you.
Course, I shoulden’t have to after reading that dinosaur bit. And Gloria already answered your question about the other planets when she put this verse here:
He didn’t make the other planets for people to live on. He made em to show that he has skillz. And chicks dig guys with skillz. (napoleon dynamite quote). But I don’t think you even tried to understand the scripture that she posted.
And another thing, mankind and earth and all these shinanigans aren’t gonna be around forever. (read revelations).
Anyways, I’m sure that Gloria has much better things to do then argue with strangers on “the innernets”.
But I shouldent even be responding, cos I know you only do this to push peoples buttons for the fun of it. I know any answer I give, and anyone elses, would never even be taken in by you, so it really is “casting my pearls to swine”, as the Bible so eloquently puts it.
And as for you Mr. Honeycutt. You are a sassy little devil, and take innernets debates way too personally. But I understand the “pregnant wife” sicheeashun. I reeeeeally do.
I just think its funny, cos Gloria is only posting scriptures, and you are taking them in all these different ways, as if SHE is the one speaking. haha.
# May 10th, 2006 at 2:47 pmBy the way, JJ. BBQ at my house on Monday with some folks from our church. And you and the fam are invited, if you can make it!
# May 10th, 2006 at 2:49 pmSo do you think the fact that I find the whole “be saved or burn in hell” thing pretty ridiculous is because I’m misguided or something? Why’s there only one way to reach God? What about the “personal relationship” with God? Isn’t that contradictory? How can I have a personal relationship with God when I’m accepting some one else’s interpretation of what God is? That’s why I don’t like organized religion, or Christianity. But that’s just because I’m a God hater, right or because I haven’t accepted Christ, right? Strikes me as a circular argument.
# May 10th, 2006 at 4:22 pmThere are no “interpretations of what God is”. There is only one interpretation, and it’s written in the Bible. If you really wanted to know what we believe and why. Pick up a copy. Might want to start with the New International Version, and see what it says.
# May 10th, 2006 at 4:52 pmSo what did people do before the Bible was written? Were they all doomed? Or did they just (and this only a hunch) sort out God for themselves?
# May 10th, 2006 at 6:06 pmGo buy a Bible, and educate yourself. All the answers are there.
# May 10th, 2006 at 9:00 pm
chad your right, i guess its kinda hard to have a sensible debate with an atheist since we’re all crazy. 
# May 11th, 2006 at 3:04 amLiz
How can we have a logical sensible debate when you will not adress the faux pas of your argument? And don’t take the approach that athiest’s are more educated - until you prove that assumption to be correct. I liked the way you called God out on the carpet. Critizing His method of creation (the carbon base idea) - like any of our ideas can trump what He did in a blink of an eye.
Whatever
What they did before, during, and after the Torah was written? They lived by strict moral law. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. You were saved by obeying the strict moral and sacrificial law. Until the Messiah came - Jesus Christ - and nailed the law and the sacrificial law to the cross.
# May 11th, 2006 at 5:46 amI never said yer all crazy. Just you are!
j/k
# May 11th, 2006 at 7:43 amchad: dang, is that why those nurses keep chasing me?
cs: carbon based idea? idea? dude, we are without a doubt, carbon based lifeforms. aint no gettin around that. you, me, and all living things on this planet are carbon based.
still seems though nobody wants to touch my dinosaur question. or better still, why the earth was hangin’ around for a couple million* years BEFORE dinosaurs and dinosaurs were around a couple million* years BEFORE people. and i wont even bring up the platypus.
the egg laying mammal. 
(*rough estamite but fairly accurate; and a heck of alot more accurate then say; 6 days BLAM! Earth. People.)
i never said atheists are more edumacated, you did, but thanks for the compliment!
i just think atheists tend to want, and search for, real concrete answers, and not follow in ‘blind faith’ just because someone else says so. i mean, where was this loving god of yours during the plague that wiped out a good chunk of europe? or the irish famine? or the millions starving in africa now? or the recent tsumani or heck, even poor louisianna? HE just sits back and watches his ‘people’ suffer immensley and die painful deaths of disease and starvation? what did these people do to get on his bad side so bad? or the woman who dies of breast cancer with 3 kids to support while the guy down the street who robbed a liquor store and kills the cashier for the 100 bucks in the register and a few cartons of smokes lives to a ripe 89 years old? or the drunk driver that wipes out a young family in a minivan and walks away with a headache? i mean geez! he sounds like a great guy. really. never heard of a guy who liked to watch vast quantities of needless pain and suffering of his own ‘creations’.
not sure about the whole ‘blink of an eye’ thing. i thought it took HIM 6 days and then he rested on the 7th. (which by the way we REALLY need to bring back. laundry day is sunday and if i could put that off another day that’d be nice)
now, where’d i leave those meds…..?
# May 11th, 2006 at 11:22 amHaha. Liz… you poor dear. I’m tellin ya… go buy a Bible, or stop by a church and they’ll probably give you one for free. Read it. Start attending a local Presbyterian church, and you’ll learn a few things.
Everything you asked about is so cliche. and the millions of years on the earths age?
Thats called a complete guess, and no facts whatsover to even remotely back that up. It takes more faith to believe that stuff.
# May 11th, 2006 at 11:43 amLiz,
You forgot to mention the flood, the whole world was wiped out, except
believing Noah and his family.
L
# May 11th, 2006 at 12:39 pm
well, the way i figure, most of yall here have read the bible and attend church regularly so i thought i’d pick your brains. but still no real answers to anything. (btw carbon dating fossils has proved that dinosaurs were here long before people)
besides if i walked into a church and starting askin’ all these pesky questions either A):twisted: the roof would cave in and start a fire or something or B) 
i’d be assulted by an angry mob of church goers. they dont take too kindly being questioned ya know. i’d rather not be responsible for A, and B doesnt sound like much fun either. so i guess i’ll just sit around waiting for the next unsuspecting god follower to poke a stick at. 
# May 11th, 2006 at 1:12 pmWe all sin, because we are sinners
From the fall and disobedience of our first parents, our nature became
so corrupt that we are all conceived and born in sin
But are we so depraved that we are completely incapable of any good and prone to all evil?
Yes, unless we are born again by the Spirit of God.
Will God allow such disobedience and apostasy to go unpunished?
no, He is displeased with our inborn as well as our actual sins, and will punish them in time and eternity. He has declared,
“Cursed is everyone that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.”
But isn’t God also merciful?
God is indeed merciful, but He is likewise just; His justice requires that sin be punished with extreme everlasting punishment both of body and soul.
How may we escape this punishment and be again received into favor?
God wills that His justice be satisfied; therefore, we must make full satisfaction to that justice, either by ourselves or by another.
Can we ourselves make this satisfaction?
Certainly not; we daily increase our guilt.
What kind of mediator and redeemer, then, must we seek?
One who is a true and righteous man, and yet more powerful than all creatures, that is, one who is also true God.
Why must He be a true and righteous man?
Because the justice of God requires that the same human nature which has sinned should make satisfaction for sin; but one who is himself a sinner cannot satisfy for others.
Why must He also be true God?
That by the power of His Godhead He might bear in His manhood the burden of God’s wrath, and so obtain for and restore to us righteousness and life.
But who now is that Mediator; who in one person is true God and also a true and righteous man?
Our Lord Jesus Christ, who is freely given unto us for complete redemption and righteousness.
From where do you know this?
From the Holy Gospel, which God Himself first revealed in Paradise, afterwards proclaimed by the holy patriarchs and prophets, and foreshadowed by the sacrifices and other ceremonies of the law, and finally fulfilled by His well-beloved Son.
Are all men, then, saved by Christ as they have perished in Adam?
No, only those who by true faith are ingrafted into Him and receive all His benefits.
Praise be to God from whom all blessings flow!
The Old Testament people looked forward to the Promised Seed
in faith, and the New Testament people look back to the same promised Seed, in faith.
We are justified by faith alone, or by faith apart from works. However, to speak more clearly, we do not mean that faith itself justifies us, for it is only an instrument with which we embrace Christ our righteousness. But Jusus Christ, imputing to us all His merits, and so many holy works which He has done for us and in our stead, is our righteousness. And faith is an instrument that keeps us in communion with Him in all His benefits, which, when they become ours, are more than sufficient to acquit us of our sins.
# May 11th, 2006 at 2:47 pm“They lived by strict moral law. An eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. You were saved by obeying the strict moral and sacrificial law. Until the Messiah came - Jesus Christ - and nailed the law and the sacrificial law to the cross.”
I’m sorry, i don’t understand. Can someone clarify this point? Did Jesus get rid of the moral and sacrificial law, as you call it, or make it part of Christianity by “nailing it to the cross”?
Also, nobody responded as to whether they will burn in hell for not being Christians…
As for the creation issue, I was under the impression that most christians consider it a metaphor for a process much like the big bang/evolution which occured over a longer period of time than the literal week. The key difference is that, instead of a series of random chemical reactions leading to the first elementary lifeforms, it was God at the helm. And thus “intelligent design”.
As for the whole “If there’s a God, how can he allow this to happen” thing… that’s why I like to consider God an entity with a good/evil agenda. A don’t believe God is rooting for one “side” or the other. Morality is a human creation, necessary for the sucessful functioning of our societies, rather than God’s mandate. (Note: that doesn’t diminish its importance. I’m not one of these people who pretends not to know right for wrong, or acts like the distinction doesn’t exist.)
# May 11th, 2006 at 7:49 pmI am going on vacation for a week, “but” will be happy to answer your questions when I get back–
# May 11th, 2006 at 8:44 pm“trust me: God is NOT “n entity”
Be in touch-
EAW
Whatever,
I didn’t explain it right. The law was not destroyed but fullfilled. The sacrificial law was destroyed. He nailed the curse or the punishment of the law to the cross so believers can be saved from an eternal death. The eternal death is hell. So yes, if you are not a follower of Christ by obeying his good news you will suffer the judgement of the law which is eternal death. It is a matter of faith. “All relgions are great to live by but it takes salvation to die by. (T. W. Barnes)” If you would like to discuss this futher let me know, I will give you my email address.
# May 12th, 2006 at 5:32 amLiz,
I’ll start at your last remarks. I was referring to you saying, “Surely a god so awesome could have figured out a way of making life without making it carbon based?” You were criticizing what he used to create us with. He did more in a blink of an eye than any human could possibly do.
I asked, “And don’t take the approach that atheist’s are more educated - until you prove that assumption to be correct.”You used the argument anyway by saying, “i just think atheists tend to want, and search for, real concrete answers, and not follow in ‘blind faith’ just because someone else says so.” All the atheists use the same argument, it doesn’t surprise me you used it anyway.
If I may ask do you have faith? Since you believe (can an atheist believe anything?) in only the concrete answers then you MUST have FACTS. So what are your facts? I ask you, go do a test. Grab a ton of dynamite and purchase all the tools necessary to build a mansion and put them all in a pile and then blow it up. Do this for a billion years if you can… it will always be the same results, a large hole in the ground with scattered material. Still no mansion. What will the FACTS tell us? It will tell us that an explosion doesn’t create anything it destroys. It takes a CREATOR to design and create anything. It is known as intelligent design as Whatever so aptly stated.
You may deny this but atheists put ‘blind faith’ into what others say. Are you a scientist? If you are not then did you do all the fact finding for your “answers” that established your belief (faith based idea) in atheism? If you are not and did not do the fact finding then you are taking others at their word, ie ‘blind faith’. By the way doubt is the opposite of faith so in order to have doubt you must believe in faith. If you have faith you have more faith than me because I seriously doubt the “theory of evolution” and “big bang” or that this awesome place we call home was by some random chance. To use the carbon dating argument is kinda humerus. It is wildly inaccurate. It isn’t based off of facts but off of assumptions from the ‘unobservable past’. You must use ‘blind faith’ to reach those assumptions. Also carbon 14 dating, from what I have read, is based upon human bias.
If there is a creator then there must be a purpose. Forget about the beginning and how things happened because you can’t prove your point. You don’t have the FACTS so you will have to use FAITH to prove it. Are you anti-faith or just anti-god? If anti-faith then you can’t believe in anything so why debate?
Let’s talk about the end for a moment. If you are right and there is not a god then what? What does a person of faith have to loose? If you are wrong and there is a God and Jesus is the Christ, God incarnate to redeem mankind, then you have everything to loose. Who cares how it started if you don’t know how it may end. My faith is in scripture and firmly place in Jesus Christ.
To answer the mom with cancer argument. I understand and I have often wondered the same thing. It just doesn’t seem fair but God does not have to answer to us. It still doesn’t hurt my faith in Him. He placed His church here to be his body, the body of Christ. We are here to live like Christ lived, (Christian means Christ-like in case you didn’t know). Sometimes that body does a poor job but many times it does an outstanding job. How many atheists have created a hospital? You don’t see an organization of atheists leading the way to helping in disasters? If you believe in FACT alone then the sad FACTS are, why atheists are not getting busy helping their fellow man? Atheism has never created technology to help the hurting or to feed the hungry. Atheism hasn’t ever given a solid factual answer to this unique life support system we call planet earth. So instead of putting God on trial by your doubt why not put atheism on trial?
# May 12th, 2006 at 7:49 am*blink blink* Very nicely done, Chad.
# May 12th, 2006 at 11:06 amThanks for clarifying cs.
“How many atheists have created a hospital?” etc.
excellent point! religion’s most useful characteristic is the ability to get people to work together towards a moral ideal/common goal. it is also religion’s most dangerous characteristic. you fail to note that many abominable human tragedies have also occured, at least in part, on religious grounds. i dont think examples are necessary, but can provide them if you wish.
“If you have faith you have more faith than me because I seriously doubt the “theory of evolution” and “big bang” or that this awesome place we call home was by some random chance.”
The scientific response to this point (also a good one) is that while the probability of the correct random combination of chemicals, conditions, etc. for the first primitive life forms may be extremely small, the universe is infinitesemly vaster. even if the probability of obtain the correct set of conditions for life was small as 1 in 100 trillion, it would still occur many times over with the trillions upon trillions upon trillions of atoms and chemical systems in the universe. and it only needed to happen once.
as for evolution, naturally it is difficult to conceive that a tiny worm would, over the course of billions of years become a human being. but even if evolution didn’t occur exactly as fosil records suggest, the principle holds true. if human evolution is too slow for you to believe, watch the mutation of bacteria and viruses.
random genetic screwups occur on a smaller scale all the time, and if the right one occurs (or wrong one, if you’re the victim) a new and more resilient disease can be spawned. why did you think a new influenza vaccine must be formulated every flu season? because the flu virus evolves rapidly. another obvious example is the development of drug-resistant diseases (e.g. - tuberculosis)
evolution’s basic principle makes sense: the stronger/ better adapted species survive, the weaker don’t. i don’t understand what’s dubious or “experimental” or “theoretical” about that…
# May 12th, 2006 at 11:10 amwhatever explained it better than i could ever have thanks!
i’d like to add in also that when religious folks get together to ‘help’ others its always with the underlying motive of their own agenda which is to covert the people they are ‘helping’, to their religon. they dont just do it to just be caring fellow citizens, they do it to gain more followers. and that, in my mind, is preying on folks already beaten down. i find that simply abomidable.
and the reason atheists havent built a hospital is probably because there just arent enough of us to do it. people in general seem to have an issue regarding their own mortality. people are afraid of the unknown. the unknown being what happens when we die. well, i’ll tell you, i’m pretty comfortable knowing that when i die thats it. i’m food for worms, to be recycled back into the ecosystem.
# May 12th, 2006 at 1:54 pmThe point of hoping for the conversion of someone IS out of love. We believe that if you don’t accept Jesus you go to hell. If we truly didn’t give a rats ass about people we would just let em burn. Most Christians I know don’t wanna see anyone go to hell… except child rapists and Osama Bin Laden (etc.) of course.
# May 12th, 2006 at 2:05 pmsee i dont think it IS out of love of fellow man. they’re doing it because thats what their preacher, priest, etc TOLD them to do in order to be good little followers.
# May 12th, 2006 at 2:14 pmThanks Chad.
Whatever,
You are right. Religion has done many many evils. Religion, however, is only an institution of moral guidelines(my definition). Like any institution, it can and has made mistakes. I am, if you haven’t guessed by now, a Christian. Many men have done evils in the name of Christianity but it was they who was wrong and not the teachings itself.
“As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?”—*Charles Darwin, quoted in H. Enoch, Evolution or Creation (1966), p. 139.
What begets life? Life begets life? If life begets life then what beget life’s life? (I’m scratching my head too
) If life can be created from inorganic material then why can’t the greatest minds create life from organic material? Considering scientists can create the “ideal” environment for life to happen why can’t they do it? Even if they created one spark of life, what are the chances of that one spark igniting into a species of life? The most basic form of life spawned in a hostile environment from dead matter is impossible. I mean if we can’t produce life in ideal situations with organic material then how can it happen in less than ideal situations for inorganic material?
I understand time is the magical solution of the evolutionist argument. Given enough time anything can happen, right? Wrong. Time isn’t a change agent. Even if time was the magical key then how many chances did the single cell organism have? Besides time is a form of measurement, who created time?
“random genetic screwups occur on a smaller scale all the time, and if the right one occurs (or wrong one, if you’re the victim) a new and more resilient disease can be spawned. why did you think a new influenza vaccine must be formulated every flu season? because the flu virus evolves rapidly. another obvious example is the development of drug-resistant diseases (e.g. - tuberculosis) “
Great point but you fail to mention flu stays flu. No matter the genetic changes that occur the species remains the same. The quote from Darwin above says it all. Where are the transitional creatures that you say the fossil records suggests? They are not there. Why not? It seems obvious that God created everything after its kind Gen1:21-25.
Do you realize the chances of this world randomly being created? What if we were just a few degrees too close to the sun? We would burn up. Or few degrees further, we’d freeze. The atmosphere is balanced perfectly for sustaining life. We are the 3rd rock from the sun for a reason. It is a perfect place for life that God created. Oh and the whole term “natural selection” shows some form of intelligence, so what was the intelligence? Again faith is in full force in making these assumptions.
No mutations are not theory, they are fact. Evolution from nothing is a theory because it can’t be proved.
Thanks for making me think. I enjoy using my gray matter that is still a mystery to the greatest minds of our world. Also many scientists are turning away from the theory of evolution.
# May 12th, 2006 at 2:15 pmLiz,
Don’t group Whatever into your category, you haven’t evolved that far in your thinking. Plus he is agnostic, from what I can tell. You are an atheist. Besides you can’t hide behind his eloquence. I have a quote for you Liz.
“I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning, consequently assumed it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption . . The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics; he is also concerned to prove there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do . . For myself, as no doubt for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneously liberation from a certain political and economic system and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom.”—*Aldous Huxley, “Confessions of a Professed Atheist,” Report: Perspective on the News, Vol. 3, June 1966, p. 19 [grandson of evolutionist Thomas Huxley, Darwin's closest friend and promoter, and brother of evolutionist Julian Huxley. Aldous Huxley was one of the most influential liberal writers of the 20th century].
# May 12th, 2006 at 2:21 pmLiz Said:
That is outta line. For you to accuse people helping people of “abomidable” underlying actions is completely wrong. Just the fact that they are helping, shows they care more than the person who sits back, badmouths them for helping, and does nothing for their fellow man.
# May 12th, 2006 at 5:26 pmchad i dont think my point came across well. let me try to explain (or flubber it up:roll:) one more time and then i’ll drop it.
when you set about aiding the less fortunate with the underlying motive of your own objective, is what i find distasteful. because you’re not doing it to be a good person, you’re doing it to serve your own purposes. and thats not aiding, thats preying. there are plenty of people who do works of good just to do them, and that is true human kindness.
I’m pretty sure its fair to say that if a jewish temple was burned down, the christians up the street would not band together and help those folks rebuild their temple, for the sole reason being the likelyhood of converting them to christianity is slim to none, so why help them? But what you do see, for example, is the Christian Childrens Fund that touts itself as one of the ‘oldest most respected charities’ going to 3rd world countries with donations from other christians to feed, clothe and create more christians by ‘aiding’ these starving kids. I’m all for the feeding and clothing part (and medicating and educating, these are all excellent) but these kids are also getting a heaping dose of the christian religon as well, you see them in the commercial in a make shift church with bibles. I’m also pretty sure its fair to say, that should one say he/she would rather be a buddist/jew/athiest/mormon…etc all aid to said kid would cease and the kid would be kicked back to the trash pile he was eating out of last week (trash pile was in the commercial). isnt that preying? would seem so to me. they are helping these kids just so they can turn them into christians. and who better to use than kids that dont know any better?
cs, i dont know if i fit the description of atheist or agnostic or any other label. i’ve been called both and many worse, i used the label atheist because thats what i get the most often.
# May 13th, 2006 at 4:11 ami was just stating that whatever had explained what i was attempting much better than i ever could. his comment had an eloquance to it whereas mine are more ‘calling it as i see it’ and sometimes crass
just thought of something. yall think i come down hard on religous folks? my kid sister is wiccian. that poor girl actually thinks she’s some kind of witch *sigh* complete with magical powers and spell casting ablilities! needless to say we’ve had a few uh…interesting debates. 
# May 13th, 2006 at 4:24 amLiz,
I don’t think you come down hard on religious people for no reason. I think you are searching for someone to be real and show the love of Christ to you. I think you are cool – and funny – even without your meds
.
I was only pointing out that Whatever was not answering the questions that I asked you. I asked you several questions and you dodged them. It is alright tho, Whatever did answer nicely and probably did steal the words out of your mouth. I am only assuming Whatever is agnostic, he (are you a he Whatever?) has not labeled himself but the definition he gave for himself fits the agnostic description.
Sure you may not fit the label but you said atheists tend to search for solid answers. I’m missing something here. Are you searching at all? If you were, you would know the definition of what your beliefs (or lack of) are.
I am with Chad about your argument of preying off of these kids. That is a low blow. Faith motivates action. What is my faith without action. Faith without works is dead, being alone. If I see someone hungry and I say, have a nice day, be feed and full, and I don’t give them something to eat. I am a sad sad follower of Christ. One of the basic tenets of Christianity is do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We should not help for the sake of conversion. Conversion is a heart thing. No one can force a heart change on anyone. Matter of fact Jesus helped the less fortunate and we should follow his example. What example does an Atheist follow? I can only presume it is the example that they have- nothing. That may be why most of them - do - nothing?
I disagree with the basic premises of your argument. Seeing you’ve already placed the bar very high you should be researching your answers before answering. Yes, some Christians do for others hoping to convert them, but this is not preying when you are trying to teach them principles that can only help. Many, very many, Christians have sacrificed their lives to help others. Look at Nazi Germany, Christians were trying to help the Jews while others were trying to destroy them. Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for a friend. I think someone great said that, (sarcasm alert) , oh rats, it was Jesus who said that.
You should research the whole Jewish temple thing because Christians are helping Israel rebuild their temple right now. It is only through donations now. The Temple was burned and ransacked by Titus in 70 A.D. If you mean Synagogue, I have no problem helping someone who has been devastated by a disaster.
JJ gave a great answer about why we work to convert someone.
# May 13th, 2006 at 10:15 amI’m sorry I haven’t read all the further discussion so if any of my points are redunant or anything, my bad. but i want to respond some of cs’s evolution points:
“Considering scientists can create the “ideal” environment for life to happen why can’t they do it? Even if they created one spark of life, what are the chances of that one spark igniting into a species of life?”
I acknowledged that the ideal environment for life to occur is EXTREMELY complex. simply by examining the chemical structure of DNA briefly in chem class, i gained a very acute appreciation of the intricate wonder of life. however, that life is exceedingly improbably or difficult to create DOES NOT necessarily mean that it was created deliberately, or by divine power.
this distinction is key. i do however acknowledge that the idea that some kind of primordial soup just magically combined itself the right way and then bam: Amoeba!!! is sort of absurd.
“it is a perfect place for life that God created. ”
earth’s conditions can hardly be said to be “ideal for life” - the world is an incredibly dangerous place for species of all kinds. heck, us humans alone have facilitated the demise of quite a number of unfortunate, poorly adapted species (some scientists go so far as to say that we as a species are an extinction event, not unlike an ice age or meteor, for other species)
and the “ideal conditions” are somewhat subjective. among the earth’s most slowly evolving but resilient species are the “extremophiles”, including the microbes that live around deep sea ocean vents. in these areas, the temperature can be hundreds of degrees Celsius, crushing water pressure, and the water contains levels of sulfur and other chemicals that would be instantly toxic (and horribly smell) to us weaklings. so in terms of conditions for life, they may have started out very different from what they are now.
another good argument of yours:
“As by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed. Why do we not find them embedded in the crust of the earth? Why is not all nature in confusion [of halfway species] instead of being, as we see them, well-defined species?”
This is the very common “half-wing” argument. The famous question asked of Darwin by one of his companions was something like, “But what good is half a wing?”
I’m sorry to abuse this example, but it turns out that certain bird species can use “half wings” for WAIR (wing assisted incline running),
http://dbs.umt.edu/flightlab/pdf/bundle%20and%20dial%20JEB%202003.pdf
enabling them to scale nearly vertical slopes to escape predators! As for why half species do not litter the globe: what about mixed-race humans? often times, mixes of different race humans form unusual beautiful and/or healthy people because the (for example) Asian and Caucasian genetic strengths are combined.
and concerning the virus evolution, “it remains the flu” depends on how you define the influenza virus genus, and other technicalities. suffice it to say that within the span of a few months, the flu can evolve to become drug resistant. that is a considerable feat, and whether the new virus is still “flu” depends on the mutation. it is a matter of debate among scientists.
NOTE: If you can’t be bothered with science courses and crappy textbooks, british author Bill Bryson’s “A Small History of Nearly Everything” is one of the best science books out there. he treats the big bang, evolution, and other crazy theories with the proper skepticism and humor.
sorry this is so long.
# May 13th, 2006 at 12:32 pmI am indeed a he, and I suppose agnostic would be the class i fit into…
Also: “Faith motivates action.” well put. whether that action is “good”, “evil”, or something in between is a matter of debate and circumstance. the action itself is the important thing.
atheism is dumb because along with a belief that there is no god comes a condescencion to those who think there is. atheism is also the resort of every feeble-minded liberal who doesn’t want to think to hard about “big ideas”. while i don’t think liz fits that description (shen write quite well on this and other topics) i am reluctant to be associated with such a generally complacent and stupid group of people. to rebel against organized religion without truly considering God for yourself is insufficient.
# May 13th, 2006 at 12:42 pmAnd finally:
“I understand time is the magical solution of the evolutionist argument.”
too true.:mrgreen:
# May 13th, 2006 at 12:45 pmWithout replying in full, yet, I applaud your logical argument. Very educational and informative. Unlike you I can’t just spout off powerful points without heavey thought. So give me a few….
# May 13th, 2006 at 1:28 pmWhatever, (Can I make a suggestion to change your name to something more educational? The simple name whatever is misleading and can make people underestimate your evolved thinking.)
“I acknowledged that the ideal environment for life to occur is EXTREMELY complex. simply by examining the chemical structure of DNA briefly in chem class, i gained a very acute appreciation of the intricate wonder of life. however, that life is exceedingly improbably or difficult to create DOES NOT necessarily mean that it was created deliberately, or by divine power. “
Well said. EXTREMELY complex is an understatement. All the variables for life to even exist after it is created is still being learned by our scientists today. The spark that ignited life to even begin is where I want to ponder. It seems only logical that a frame work of supporting life must be in place before life can enter the picture. The complexity of this frame work is, at the very least, mind blowing. If the frame work is not there then life could not exist. That is why, (forgive me for using the only Book I truly study) God made the earth and all of its essentials to sustain life, then he made man.
You are right it does not necessarily mean it was created deliberately, or by divine power. I just believe if their is a design then their must be a designer. To think otherwise would erode the basis of what our natural world exemplifies and would deny what happens everyday all around us. Life only begets life. If evolution was true then we would still be seeing new and improved organisms. When I say new I mean freshly created from inorganic material. Yes adaptation does happen so you could say that improved does happen. Still no new species or anything in between.
Our solar system is expanding. If God created the heavens and the earth then who is to say he isn’t still creating solar systems and worlds and planets. Scientists are discovering new systems and planets all the time. Yes that could be because of the expanse of space. If God created it and it is still expanding and growing then it is a huge possibility that he is still at work. Evolution, however, has not produced a new species. So it is not following the logics and reasoning of its basic belief.
“earth’s conditions can hardly be said to be “ideal for life” “
Earth’s conditions are not ideal for life? Then why is life flourishing? Have they discovered life on another planet? True it